'''Welcome to ''Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum''!'''
We hope you will contribute much and well.
You will probably want to read the [Lexicanum:Help help pages].
Again, welcome and have fun! [[User:Inquisitor S.|Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum]] ([[User talk:Inquisitor S.|talk]]) 09:49, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
==Image uploads==
Concerns [[:File:Kargos.jpg]]:
*the summary needs [[Warhammer_40k_-_Lexicanum:Internal_link|internal links]]
*Copyright '''always''' is <nowiki>{{Copyright}}</nowiki> (easy to remember ;))
*Source is absolutely compulsory, see [[Warhammer_40k_-_Lexicanum:Citation|here]].
*All images needs to be categorized, see also [[Warhammer_40k_-_Lexicanum:Image_upload_help|here]].
Please fix that and follow for future uploads, thanks. Cheers. --[[User:Inquisitor S.|Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum]] ([[User talk:Inquisitor S.|talk]]) 09:27, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
:Thanks for bringing this to my attention! I would be happy to fix this file but am currently unable to make changes to it as the page is protected (the Edit links has become View Source). I have "Saved" my changes but they do not appear to have an effect.
::Please always sign your ''(user) talk'' contributions with <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki> which will be automatically transformed into a timestamped signature. This is to be able to identify who said what and when in a discussion, otherwise it can become a bit messy.
::The Kargos file has not been protected against editting, but there seems to be a technical problem I have to contact the IT people about. I have encountered the same problem with two other files yesterday, so there seems to be a glitch somewhere. When that is fixed, we will come back to those files.
::But while we are at it another issue: Please do not use the image format PNG unless absolutely necessary (there are some rare cases like images with transparent backgrounds). JPG always should be the go-to format. The reason for this is that PNG (and other files) have a tendency to be unreasonably big storagewise. And with the amount of storage space available and also the speed with which pages load for users this is a consideration to take, thanks. --[[User:Inquisitor S.|Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum]] ([[User talk:Inquisitor S.|talk]]) 20:33, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
No problem. I will make sure to use JPG if I upload any other images!
--[[User:Qazbor|Qazbor]] ([[User talk:Qazbor|talk]]) 22:22, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
:Thanks. Please also do note that by adding ":", "::", ":::" etc. at the beginning of a line your comments will be formatted with a preceding indent to make reading in discussions that belong together easier. --[[User:Inquisitor S.|Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum]] ([[User talk:Inquisitor S.|talk]]) 09:14, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
==Article issues==
We very seriously have to talk about the articles you are writing on the basis of the Codex Imperialis and other 2nd ed books. Their content simply cannot stand like that, you have inserted tons of your own interpretations, speculations and conjectures. For Karazantor the Vile for example we know nothing with certainty apart from the quote. All the rest is basically what you have complemented to make sense of it. And that we absolutely cannot do. Also I really do not see why Chicano for example should be a daemon world. Daemon worlds are something completely else than described in the given source. Please be back to me about that so that we can fix these problems before they become real issues, thanks. --[[User:Inquisitor S.|Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum]] ([[User talk:Inquisitor S.|talk]]) 21:04, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
:I definitely appreciate you bringing these issues up and I don't mean to cause any problems. For the info on Karazantor the Vile, I am positive he is associated with Tzeentch as his miniature is in Citadel's 1991 catalog on page 107 in the Chaos Renegade Tzeentch section. It appears he has a Thousand Sons (Tzeentch) symbol on his shoulder in the Codex Imperialis image as well as the Athanaeans symbols (Tzeentch) on his knee armour and clothing so I added the Characters Thousand Sons category to the page. From the image, we can see he is riding a Disc of Tzeentch which serves as a mount for Champions of Tzeentch so I stated he was a Chaos Lord but perhaps that should be updated to Chaos Champion? Finally with the reference to Chicano in his profile, you are correct in that this was an assumption on my part and it can be removed if necessary. My thought process on this was basically following breadcrumbs. Since Karazantor is known as the Traitor of Xian in Codex Imperialis (2nd Edition) quote and image and we know he is associated with Tzeentch and there is a excerpt regarding Chicano (taken over by cultist Tzeentch followers i.e. traitors) on page 18 of the 40k 2nd Edition Wargear book which also references a Lord Xian Torus, in my head I figured the odds of having two references to a "Xian" both found in 2nd edition books both linked to Tzeentch meant that Karazantor was likely involved in the downfall of Chicano. Again, this can be removed if necessary. With Chicano being classed as a Daemon world, that was again an assumption on my part seeing as though it was taken over by Tzeentch followers and the text in the 2nd edition book mentions Tzeentch and laughter from the warp. Perhaps it should be classed as Unknown? Thanks!
--[[User:Qazbor|Qazbor]] ([[User talk:Qazbor|talk]]) 22:22, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
::Sorry for not being able to respond earlier, time constraints. And no reason to apologize (yet ;)), we are here to talk and "teach" (not meant condescending), after all all projects have their own rules and standards that cannot be entirely obvious, especially not to newcomers.
::So to the subject at hand. As a general rule that we all have to constantly keep in mind: We should really, really, really stick to the exact wording and refrain from extrapolating, interpreting or "filling logical gaps" on our own. The problems of course being, that Games Workshop and its writers, artists etc. themselves are all but logical and consequent. See [[Warhammer_40k_-_Lexicanum:Accepted_sources#Why_the_term_.22Canon.22_or_.22Canonicity.22_is_problematic|Why the term "Canon" or "Canonicity" is problematic]] for a more detailed review of this issue. The older the source material, the worse the issue can become. If there are really strong hints that are not explicitly stated we can ''under very specific circumstances'' pick up on them but have to mark ''explicitly'' that we have done so. For this purpose the solution is the use of [[Warhammer_40k_-_Lexicanum:Trivia|Trivia footnotes and notes]].
::Specifically regarding the case of Karazanor the Vile (I hobbywise "grew up" with 2nd ed...): That the term "Xian" is used in both sources ''can'' be a coincidence, GW has many examples where the same names were used for clearly different items (for one example see [[Gehenna_Prime#Notes]]). From a purely logical point of view why would somebody be called "Traitor of ''first name of a person''"? Traitor of ''place name'' or Traitor of ''last name of a person'' would be what we would expect according to most conventions. So that is a line of thought that is very tenuous. But which could be elaborated on in a ''Trivia'' section (see above) with the clear caveat that there is no proof that it ''is'' like that. Concerning the association of the quote of Karazantor with that specific image: that unfortunately is typical GW, especially regarding the 2nd edition boxed set books. As far as I am aware no new original artwork was created for these books, GW simply slapped pre-existing images that vaguely fitted in where they considered it appropriate. I am already impressed that you know that the artwork next to the Karazantor quote actually corresponds to a real miniature, the vast majority of people would not know that. Now I admit I have not checked the back catalogues yet but I would be surprised to the extreme if the catalogue would list the miniature with the explicit name "Karazantor". As you said, it is (to my knowledge), a "generic" Tzeentch renegade (most often old language convention for Chaos Space Marines). So the same goes for the image next to the quote. If we can go as far as to narrow this renegade down to the "Thousand Sons" I cannot say yet, as we would have to study if the symbols used were Thousand Sons specific or more Tzeentchian in general. Therefore I would definitely for the time being not explicitly associate the article with the Thousand Sons until proven otherwise. So regarding the image I ''would'' leave it in the article as it ''is'' associated with the quote in the Codex Imperialis '''but''' I would insist on adding a Trivia referral note (see above) in the caption of the image so that interested readers note that the image actually probably shows a "generic" Tzeentch Champion of Chaos Renegade Disc Rider (or whatever the exact wording is). I would definitely '''not''' call him a '''Chaos Lord''' as that would be an interpretation or presumption.
::The same is true for the reference to ''Chicano''. You could leave it in the article (maybe actually should) but you have to add a "possibly" to make clear that this is not really proven. With the appropriate explanation via footnote/ Trivia note.
::@daemon world: if it is not explicitly stated then we don't say it. From the actual description to me it does not sound at all like a daemon world (which are already hard to categorize due to the nature of the Gods' whims I guess). It ''could'' of course be a daemon world, but it is equally likely (or more, given the description) that while a Tzeentzchian plot brought about the downfall of the world it is "now" (whenever that is) just a ruined world. So "unknown" with again a note referring to a part of the article where what we know is written down is the way to go.
::Puh, lots of typing ;) But as I consider this as a general discussion to serve as a blueprint for many similar issues you have and still will encounter I hope it was worth it. Please feel free to further discuss this here. You can always find me on [[Warhammer_40k_-_Lexicanum:Discord_server|Discord]] for a sometimes more informal way of clearing up issues.
::Cheers. --[[User:Inquisitor S.|Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum]] ([[User talk:Inquisitor S.|talk]]) 09:14, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
