Talk:Two unknown legions/Archive

Further discussion

A note for further discussion: It has been suggested, and I think it does seem reasonable, that perhaps the Unknown Primarchs were never found by the Emperor. Astartes of the Space Marine Legions were modified with DNA samples of the 20 Primarchs previous to the actual "discovery" of each Primarch, after which the legions were rededicated to their benefactors. It is possible that the two Unknown Primarchs were not found before the Horus Heresy, and so the two legions were never able to be "given" to them. This theory also makes it possible to tie in another related theory, which is that one of the missing Primarchs is female, which could be the gene-root of the Sisters of Battle. --Abadea 11:24, 26 March 2008 (CET)

Well the truth of the matter is that Games workshop likes to keep some mysteries unexplained to keep the interest of fans. More than one source tells us that the all the primarchs were found before the Horus Heresy. Read the article, one source tells that all the legions were commanded by their own primarch. Another source tells us that Alpharius was nicknamed "the Last" because he was the last primarch to be found, etc. The Sisters of Battle are not, I repeat not, extraordinary. They are normal women, who undergo an extremly hard recruitment and training which filters any weak specimens out. Their faith and loyalty is strengthened to the limit. Then they are equipped with best weaponry of the Imperium (like the Space Marines). The Sisters of Battle don't have any special genetic improvements (the Space Marines have twenty improvements) and most of all they don't the improvement which creates an actual link with their power armor. One can always wear power armor without it, that's why Inquisitors and the Sisters can wear them. Besides if you read the article Adepta Sororitas you will find the origins of the sisters and they don't have any relation with the Space Marines or the primarchs. Irulan 15:20, 26 March 2008 (CET)

I thought the SoB were formed as there was a sanction that the Ecclesiarchy were not allowed to maintain a standing army of men....so they went with women instead?? - Orric 13:30 27 March 2008

That is true, but this was only after the Age of Apostasy. They were formed from the Daughters of the Emperor, which was made into the bodyguards of Vandire himself, then known as the Brides of the Emperor, and then were converted on his downfall (ironically by one of his own female bodyguards) into the sisters of battle. They have no relationship to the primarchs in any way, the prime piece of evidence being that this formation occurred around 378.M36, way after the Horus Heresy even, and after most of the primarchs are dead. The military order of the ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle, were indeed created after the decree passive prohibited the ecclesiarchy from using 'men under arms'. Most of this info can be found in Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition) if you can find a copy, or else look in Codex: Witch Hunters as I believe some of it is in there.--Jonru 15:34, 27 March 2008 (CET)

An interesting point occured to me. "All primarchs were tempted by Chaos predations, and "fully half" of them failed that test." However according to Dan Abnett's novel Legion the Alpha Legion joined Horus' side to ensure the total destruction of Chaos and not because they failed the test. Given that information, it could be assumed that the two unknown primarchs had fallen to Chaos. --Alex Knight 20:51, 8 August 2008 (CEST)

On another note, I noticed an interesting several things lately while re-reading Horus Rising and this lexicanum page. The "Emperor" of 63-19 was in fact invisible. He lead a whole culture as well as having near super-natural powers. He had raised a whole force that were in fact similar to astartes save the actual astartes part. Is it not possible that he was a primarch, however not noticed due to the lack of the Emperor in the crusade. Could his narcissism thinking himself as the true ruler of mankind in fact been "...warnings that no one heeded." If not, how is it he fits all the criteria? --Th3malleus 18:26, 14 October 2008 (PST)

Blood Ravens

As one of the Lost Chapters

I was playing Dawn of War: Dark Crusade today and I know it's been noted every so often, but does anyone else think that the Blood Ravens are one of the lost chapters? There founding isn't known right? They have an unknown gene-seed. There battle cry is "For the unknown Primarch" and there main battle cry "For the Great Father" while, yes this could imply that the Emperor is the "Great Father" it seems unlikely, and that would mean there Primarch is the "Great Father". The Blood Ravens do not relate at all to any other chapter from what I know today, I always believed that the original legions represented a part of the Emperor, and the Blood Ravens would show his prowess with the warp and pshyicness, and his quest for knowledge and his hunt for relics. - Nikolas

Doesn't matter at all what anybody thinks. This is not a forum. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 09:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Its a discussion. --Geno Five-Two Chiliad 07:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

We don't discuss personal opinions, ideas, speculations etc. The discussion page serves the purpose of clearing up where certain official information comes from and where we can find sources to make the article better. Everything else belongs into forums and there you will find more stupid unknown legion threads than even the most enthusiastic reader would ever want to see. And in this special case here he is even asking for some kind of poll which is totally out of the scope of our work. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 07:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi i gotta say that ive heard the theory before that the blood ravens are a first founding chapter and while id its unlikely it may still merit a mention on the page.Kobol 19:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 21:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I thought it doesn't matter what anybody "thinks." Dawn of War 2 says they have an unknown primarch. This should be mentioned on the page. --Spysix 05:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

He heard the theory. That's a second-hand information, so it has no place here. If Dawn of War says black on white what you said then it must be included. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 09:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Then I'll get on to finding the specific quote in Dawn of War 2 that explains their unknown primarch. --Spysix 05:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, there're many chapters with an unknown primarch and unknown orign. That doesn't mean that they're the offspring of one of the unknown legions/primarchs.--Genestealer, Magus 14:57, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories do not belong in our articles. This will only create confusion - it's no better than fan fiction. --Lost_Heretic 04:11, 30 October 2009 (EST)

Blood Raven's call him "The unknown primarch." I don't know any other canonical sources stating other unknown legions. Plus Blood Raven's history was destroyed during the horus heresy as stated, It should possess some relevance in the Overview section. --Spysix 21:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

"Unknown primarch" does not equal "unknown legion". And where exactly is the source that the Blood Ravens' records were destroyed during the Horus Heresy --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 11:17, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Each primarch was given a legion, here is a legion with an unknown foundling. I recalled reading the Blood Ravens records destroyed here in a page section or somewhere of good source, trying to find it. Right now I don't have a lot of time on my hands to search with college papers piling up. --Spysix 01:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Each chapter reveres the primarch of their parent legion, that is not evidence that the Blood Ravens are/ were a legion. The "Unknown primarch" therefore could just be a reference to the unknown ancestor legion. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 10:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

For example, Soul Drinkers and Black Templars say their primarch is Rogal Dorn. They're both later foundings. --Lost_Heretic 10:20, 3 November 2009 (EST)

Not getting started about all the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Ultramarines successors that do the same. --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 15:30, 3 November

2009 (UTC)

Yes logically that is correct, but we do not know if the Blood Ravens are from a latter foundling since they have no knowledge of their history. And I'm not sure if we should get into theory about the Blood Ravens being a successor chapter to the/an unknown legion since there is no relevance. --Spysix 21:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

This is what is according to Dawn of War 2 in regards to the Blood Ravens, this is an excerpt from the Eldar Raid mission.

"The Blood Ravens are unique because they have lost all knowledge of their origins. Their records only date back to the great civil war that almost destroyed the Imperium millennia ago. They do not even recall their founder, and simply refer to him as "The Unknown Primarch."

I think this possess some relevance. The unknown primarchs and their legions data were destroyed during the civil war. They also have a founder, not from a founding of either the unknown legions or some other legion. The blood ravens should have a mention of at least being a candidate of being one of the unknown legions. --Spysix 05:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Please provide a screenshot of the Mission briefing. And if I wanted to be pedantic I could point ou that there were several civil wars. "They also have a founder, not from a founding of either the unknown legions or some other legion." -> What do you mean by this? --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 10:43, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Argh, I think I just saved over again and would have to restart again to get to that point. Yes there were several civil wars, but only one was called great that almost destroyed the imperium. And what I ment was since the excerpt talks about a founder, possibly a primarch the Blood Ravens originated from. I wanted to clarify that this means the blood ravens didn't descend from another legion. I'm ganna go ahead and try and get back to that mission and get a screenshot now. --Spysix 22:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

EDIT: nevermind, I still luckily had it on clipboard.

Bare with me, I'm still rusty on embedding pictures.

"I wanted to clarify that this means the blood ravens didn't descend from another legion." -> The text does not say that. There were several primarchs still alive when the splitting up and therefore the founding of the new chapters happened and any of these primarchs would be regarded as the "founder". --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 09:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Alright, but that doesn't bar the blood ravens from being a candidate for being one of the unknown legions. --Spysix 02:35, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

No, but it doesn't automatically raise them to it either. It's not firm evidence, you're just drawing meaning from semantics. Basically, the source you kindly provided does not provide information on the 2 Unknown Legions, it provides information on the Blood Ravens. If one were to place theories about the Blood Ravens' origins on lex, that should be done - cited and sourced - in their own article. And if one were to do that, surely their possible connection to the Thousand Sons would take precedence. There's plenty of grist for the mill on that subject in the 2nd and 3rd DOW novels. Thanks.--Mob 04:38, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say it automatically does, I'm saying they're candidates. This is why we're discussing it now and its not on a page to be edited over and over again. Thousands sons don't take precedence as it's just as well a theory as the Blood Ravens being an unknown legion. Thank you and goodnight. --Spysix 02:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I find it unlikely that the BR are the missing legion. The way that the storylines have gone, it is definitely set that they are a Later Founding legion. Apparently they've been avoiding the Black Legion due to some horrific truth of their past. My current theory (one of many...I thought of this one about half an hour ago as I was walking out of the bathroom) is that their geneseed and heritage comes from all the surviving loyalist elements of the traitor legions. In current 40k fluff and mindset of the *cough cough* Inquisition, they would probably be condemned, excommunicated, and "Soul Drinker"ed. Perhaps Garviel Loken or someone else from the loyalist Luna Wolves is accountable? The problem with my theory (I'll shoot at myself, thank you very much) is that it doesn't account for the high number of psykers (although I could stretch and say that there a few loyal Thousand Sons that ended up spawning a whole horde of them). However, this doesn't support where Chaos Rising is going, what with a past with the Black Legion UNLESS it has something to do with the fact that the Black Legion knows that they're traitor descendants. Abaddon plays Starcraft...we all know that. 00:17, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with leonnatus. In the Horus Heresy Books it is never conclusivly said that Loken or Saul die. And for that matter the about chapter sized resistance left in the palace. Of course some died in the orbital bombardment in the end of book 3. It never says what happened to the to the Emperors Children dreadnought of whom the nme escapes me. It is alsonot conclusivly said what happens to Captain Garro. It is suggested that he beggins the grey knights but on that note he was not declared excommunicate tratoris. So it is possible that the other loyalist elements of the traitor legions were given something similar, perhaps a chapter of their own or a place in the grey knights. Food for thought.User:sulenreaper 00:18, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Just a little something

I have seen many sources where it is stated that no known primarch got the "Invisibility" power, just as here. But then we got the Horus Heresy books, and now there are at least three primarchs who have some form of this power:

1) Night Haunter. See "The Dark King". He can find shadows to hide no matter where he is.

2) Corax. See "Raven´s Flight". And uses it during the massacre on Isstvan V, no less.

3) Mortarion (seriously!): it is said in at least two books of the Horus Heresy. In "A thousand sons" you will find it in chapter 15, page 263. Magnus find some brothers and then he identifies a Deathshroud, therefore deducing Mortarion is around. He ask him to show himself, and "a dark outline seems to flow". In a blink, Mortarion is just there, a near three meters tall primarch in full armour, wielding a reaper even bigger (then Magnus say something that really shocked me, impliying that Mortarion, for all his hate for psykers, is already getting near to Nurgle. Actually, is an old Nurgle law -the Deathshroud must be 7x7 paces from their master- what allows Magnus to find his brother, but this is another history to be told, if we are lucky). This is the second time Mortarion uses this trick. The first time is in "Flight of the Eisenstein", chapter one. Garro is told that Mortarion will be with them. They enter a room and, after a while, Garro spots the Deathshroud. He is shocked by the fact that he didn´t realizes they had entered the room. He ask when Mortarion will arrive and the answer is "he has been here all along". At due time, Mortarion "detached himself from the dimness" beside a window and show himself.

Therefore, I humbly request to change this page. Csm001 06:27, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

This is no proof, but they could be possible candidates. By the way, the Emperor also can do that (see "Nemesis"). --Inquisitor S., Großmeister des Ordo Lexicanum 21:54, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

It is not proof for saying they have this power, as it is not clear. But I was actually requesting to change this part: "as invisibility is not a power possessed by those known". I reckon this sentence is no longer valid in its present form. In my humble opinion there is enough proof for branding it, at least, arguable. By the way, I haven´t read Nemesis (it´s on my list of important things to do), but Graham McNeill´s sweet jewel "The last church" was on my mind. Csm001 06:37, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

The idea that the Imperium, like the Soviet Union under Stalin, can simply alter and revise history, is much more intriguing than trying to logically determine who the lost legions were. Even Rick Priestley, etc doesn't know who the missing legions are. It's just fiction. If they didn't betray the Imperium, why doesn't anyone remember who they were? Their records are described in 2nd edition as having been intentionally expunged. (Later versions muddied the issue). They wouldn't be expunged if they had remained loyal.

Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness, p.243:

"His future assured, the Emperor pronounced judgement on Horus and his Legions .... the Fleet was ordered to drive them into the Eye of Terror... Here the Traitor Legions would be confined for all eternity; all records and memories of the lapsed Marine Chapters would be expunged from Imperial Archives. .. It would be as if the Traitor Legions had never existed."

(So the lost legions simply don't exist, but the Traitor Legions are harder to cover up because they're still raiding the Imperium.) --Acidface 06:57, 13 February 2013 (CET)

I believe it to be possible that the two Lost Primarchs were corrupted before adopting their respective legions. As the swell in the Ultramarines numbhers suggest they adopted the lost legions, they would not have agreed if they had already met their Primarch, as the Primarchs inspired such devotion in their followers that i doubt they would willingly join another legion if such an event had happened. I theorize that either the planets these primarchs landed on, or their trips through the warp affected them in a way that was evident before they acquired their legions. I suspect corruption of some sort not be Chaos, as the other Primarchs would have know of it beforehand, but a mutation or exposure to a xenos race. My own personal theory is that one of the Lost Primarchs landed on an Eldar Crone World and subsequently believed them to be allies, while the Emperor preached death to all Xenos. This may have a created a conflict of interests and the Emperor would never have allowed one of his generals to be allies with any xenos and had him killed. The other one i believe to be the invisible one, and he likely was executed due to such an extravagant mutation, and one that was more likely to negatively affect his character, while the only other Primarch to have a mutation was Sanguinus, his was only wings, making him seem more angelic or noble, which would benefit his ability to convert human populations to the Imperium and therefore make him a better leader, while invisibilty insinuats that he may be more devious and underhanded.

Well apart from the point we're in the realm of pure speculation now...

1. The devotion of a Space Marine to his Primarch is not absolute as the loyalists inside the traitor-legions proved.

2. At least Horus and Alpharius knew of Chaos, although they dismissed it as a further type of xenos. Magnus also knew of Chaos but vastly underestimated its scope and importance within the warp.

3. The XI Primarch is mentioned to have committed some horrible crime, which not necessarily encompasses corruption. It might simply be something un-imperial like democracy, tolerance for xenos or tech-heresy.

4. You take invisibility literal. Mortarion for example had the talent to hide in the shadows, Night Haunter loved surprise attacks, Magnus and the Thousand Sons fought their wars from afar with their psychic powers, Alpharius hid amongst his men unseen to outsiders... --DetlefK 00:16, 24 April 2013 (CEST)

Do you have source about the XI Primarch committing crime ? because in the second book of the Horus Heresy, during the Horus' journey in the warp in the Delphos, when he is in the Emperor's Primarch Lab, it is statted (p.247)"He stopped by the tank with XI stenciled upon it [...] feeling the untapped glories that light have lain ahead for what grew within, but knowing that they would never come to pass." It seem like the primarch didn't have been found, alive at least. In addition, it would be great to see, about the incident who took place in the Primach Lab, if some sort of fight between the Custodian and some sort of warp entity is mentionned before the vanishing of the Primarch's Tank. If so the fact that Horus damaged one, surely the XI but it's not clearly statted (p.254 "Horus, hammering his hand into the [...] tank before him. The metal buckled and a hairline crack split the thoughened glass under his assaul. He could hear [...] a hiss of escaping gas whined from the frosteed panel of the tank") in his journey in the warp could have been the cause of the lost of this Primarch. --MonsieurPorc 01:35, 14 May 2014 (CEST)

A little clarification

The actual reason the two unknown legions exists, as GW themselves have said, is to give table-top players the opportunity to make their own chapters with their own history. More recently, with the success of the Horus Heresy novels, the authors will drop hints here and there without stating anything explicit as they can't actually say more. (This is one of the first things I read on the GW website years ago when I was just getting into it, now I'm having trouble finding a citable source).

More interestingly, the Blood Ravens are being heavily hinted at as a successor chapter, in effect loyal remnant, to the Thousand Sons. In the novel, a small expeditionary fleet was absent from Prospero, several lines throughout describe visions of the future consisting of ravens and symbols.

There are two little problems:

1. According to A Thousand Sons, those Thousand Sons unafflicted by the Rubric of Ahriman (or protected by a spell of the Tzeentch-daemon Choronzon) are still subjected to flesh-change, because the Thousand Sons gene-seed is inherently unstable. If neither the Emperor nor Magnus found a way to cure them, what are the odds that those splintered remnants will find a way before they simply die away?

2. According to the short-story Rebirth, after the Razing of Prospero but before their alliance with Horus, the Thousand Sons-fleet was attacked by unknown enemies and suffered losses. The Thousand Sons-Legion had a strength of approx. 10,000 Space Marines, 90% of whom died on Prospero and Space Marines-ships only carry Space Marines as officers. --DetlefK 10:59, 14 May 2013 (CEST)

"It's too late... the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne... no, the blood! The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied! "

I guess you could argue that the raven refers to Raven Guard and their problems, or it is merely a symbol of death.

"Ah, well that would be telling, wouldn't it?

Make of it what you will... :-)" -Graham

The ambiguity is intentional though it seems like a pretty clear nod to the Blood Ravens. If it weren't, there shouldn't be a problem in clarifying that quote from The Thousand Sons.

Also worth noting, Black Library keep trying to shovel out more books and with so many authors its inevitable for contradictions and inconsistencies to occur. It would seem that the authors do the best they can under the circumstances, they can't always give explicit statements , at least in this instance because really its Relic who will decide what Blood Ravens are, provided GW is ok with it. the lack of explicit definition leaves us with lots of speculation

Personally I'm happy enough in thinking the Blood Ravens are of Thousand Son stock in some way as it just makes sense. You could even argue that Chapter Master Kyras made some deal similar to Magnus in order to preserve the Ravens before ultimately giving in. Again, purely speculation, though I'm sure we'll find out in Dawn of War 3. --SylvanSetanta 18:18, 14 May 2013 (GMT)

The Sigillite

Unless someone has a different version, the audio drama exact words are "It looked like two of the symbols had been scratched out, or had worn away", not that "one had obviously be hacked at with a blade until it was unrecognizable, while the second had strangely 'faded, as if time had taken its toll.'" I'm not sure where this quote is from, but will remove this section, unless someone can point to where it says otherwise. To be fair, without this I'm not sure if it's even worth having the section, as it doesn't say anything new about the missing Primarchs.Phunting 00:28, 26 July 2013 (CEST)